Dyna Ignition Troubleshoot?

First question here been lurking for a while. I have a 78 kz650 and another parts bike that I took a Dyna III system off of. The 78 runs with the points ignition. I got the instalation instructions off dynateks website and followed them exactly. I installed it but have not timed it yet. But at this point I get NO SPARK at all. Do I need to time it first or shouldn't it still spark just not at the right time? I have 12 vots going into the ignition box. I evenswapped the rotor and points back on again just to chek my coils and it fires right up. What should I check from here? My multimeter is very cheap but with the key on and bike not running if I check the green lead coming out of the ignition box that goes to the coil I read about .50v the black read exacty the same. Is this normal or am I looking in the wrong place? Not too much electrical experience. I have tripled checked the hook up and everything looks good though.

You can test the DYna III with a magnet. Just move a magnet past the pickup's face and you should get a spark, that is if it's wired right and not defective. You may have to flip the magnet around to get the correct pole near the pickup.

Also, the Dyna behaves as if it was a set of points that are closed all the time until the magnet comes near the pickup. If you feel the ignition coils get hot, don't be surprised. If you leave the ignition on, only do it for a few minutes at a time. Leave the ignition off for the same amount of time to make sure you don't cook the coils.

Post edited by: loudhvx, at: 2006/01/10 01:28

One of these days I'm going to do some more current tests comparing the current draw ect, between the points and Dyna setups. I just can't believe the Dyna draws any more current or could make the coils get hot. Doesn't the Dyna basically do the same thing as points? The points open, the electrical field colapses, inducing your 30kv spark into the secondary, then nothing happens until the points are closed again, then reopened to repeat. With the Dyna the same thing is done electrically every engine revolution, instead of mechanically using the points. Once the electrical field colapses doesn't the coil just sit there idle waiting for the next signal to fire whether it be points or Dyna? Even with points, depending on where your engine is turned in rotation the points are either closed or open, and either position in sitting, I can't imagine the coils heating, same with Dyna. Not to doubt you, just trying to understand how in the World this is going to happen.
loudhvx wrote:

You can test the DYna III with a magnet. Just move a magnet past the pickup's face and you should get a spark, that is if it's wired right and not defective. You may have to flip the magnet around to get the correct pole near the pickup.

Also, the Dyna behaves as if it was a set of points that are closed all the time until the magnet comes near the pickup. If you feel the ignition coils get hot, don't be surprised. If you leave the ignition on, only do it for a few minutes at a time. Leave the ignition off for the same amount of time to make sure you don't cook the coils.<br><br>Post edited by: loudhvx, at: 2006/01/10 01:28

If the magnet doesn't work is there a way to test if it is defective or not?

RonKZ650 wrote:

One of these days I'm going to do some more current tests comparing the current draw ect, between the points and Dyna setups.

That would be great. Your previous tests were very interesting. Real data is probably always better than conjecture.

RonKZ650 wrote:

I just can't believe the Dyna draws any more current or could make the coils get hot.

It doesn't draw more instantaneous current. It draws more average current. It's very important to know which you are measuring when you take your data.

RonKZ650 wrote:

Doesn't the Dyna basically do the same thing as points?

Yes, but with one critical difference....

RonKZ650 wrote:

The points open, the electrical field colapses, inducing your 30kv spark into the secondary, then nothing happens until the points are closed again, then reopened to repeat. With the Dyna the same thing is done electrically every engine revolution, instead of mechanically using the points.

Yes.....

RonKZ650 wrote:

Once the electrical field colapses doesn't the coil just sit there idle waiting for the next signal to fire whether it be points or Dyna?

No. This is where the difference exists. With points, once the spark occurrs, the points wait about 180 degrees of crank rotation before re-applying the primary current. During this time the points cool down and the coils cool down.
The Dyna does not wait. It re-applies primary current almost immediately... something like 20 degrees or so after spark (I forget the actual number).

RonKZ650 wrote:

Even with points, depending on where your engine is turned in rotation the points are either closed or open, and either position in sitting, I can't imagine the coils heating, same with Dyna.

When the points are closed, the primary current is heating the coils. With the Dyna, it's as if the points are closed almost all of the time. With points it's about 50% of the time.
It's referred to as a duty cycle. The points have about a 50% duty cycle. The Dyna is more like 90% duty cycle. At first, it doesn't seem like much difference, 40%, but consider the "on" time versus the "off" time. 50/50 = 1. 90/10 = 9. The coils get very little time to cool so their heat build-up increases significantly, in the long run, with the Dyna.

But, all of this should not worry you. There are other factors that hedge the bets. When the bike is actually moving, there is much more air cooling the coils. Also, if you've ever stopped the bike and left the ignition on, chances are, at least one coil was "on" the whole time. It did not blow up, so the coils do seem to be able to stand the abuse of 100% duty cycle. Modern coils seem to be able to take more abuse than their ancestors.

There is one other factor that really makes a difference. Coils take a certain amount of time before the primary current will reach it's maximum value. At higher RPMs, the primary doesn't reach it's maximum value. This means the primary current doesn't actually reach it's maximum and therefore the heat dissipation will be less in the coil at higher RPMs. That is the purpose of a true ballast resistor. At low RPMs, the ballast heats up and reduces the primary current to prevent the coils from overheating. At a sustained high-RPM, the ballast cools down and allows more primary current to the coils to produce a bigger spark. The coils won't really get much hotter, because at high RPMs, the coils themselves will prevent the current from reaching its maximum. (On cars the ballast is switched out during start-up to get max current to the coil during starting.)

So why is the Kaw electronic ignition better? First, it does not allow the coils to turn "on" when the crank is not turning. Also, it's duty cycle is less than 50% so the coils get ample time to cool, therefore they use hotter coils. The kaw actually uses a variable duty-cycle setup. It's inherent in a reluctor-type pickup. At lower rpms, the duty cycle is lower. The dwell at idle can be below 100 degrees of crank rotation. At higher RPMs the dwell is around 120 degrees of crank rotation. 20 degrees doesn't seem like a lot, but it's the "on" time versus "off" time that makes a difference.

Incidently, "dwell" can mean several things so it must be taken in context. Dwell is when the points are closed, but it can be described as duty-cycle, or crank angle, or cam-angle (in cars), or actual time.

Post edited by: loudhvx, at: 2006/01/10 13:40

Ok anyone have an answer to my problem?????

So the magnet near the pickup did not create a spark? You tried flipping the magnet?

Do the coils get warm? If so, then they are at least getting current. If not, then there's a chance of a wiring error.

Normally, both circuits won't fail simultaneously and you'll get spark out of at least one of the coils.

If you've hooked everything up correctly, and the magnet doesn't cause a spark, I guess the unit (pickup and module) may need to go to Dyna for inspection.

Post edited by: loudhvx, at: 2006/01/10 13:47

I got a spark with the magnet!! Ok where do I look from here? Could this mean that the timing is just that far out? I am going to get a timing light today. Thanks for the help by the way.

Post edited by: kykz650, at: 2006/01/10 15:07

Sorry to keep adding to the thread and continuing to not help with the original question, but anyone curious, Lou is exactly right. Did a few of my tests and found:
Did a slow rotation of the engine while checking current on the yellow/red wire to coil #2/3.
Total time 26 seconds.
Coil "on time" 24.1 seconds 1.9A
Coil "off" time 1.9 seconds
Average 1.7A
Left the key on with engine not running for 5 minutes. Both coils temperature rose approx 8 degrees from 57 to 65 degrees.
No need for me to even try points as there is no doubt they will be in the off state for a longer length of time and therby draw less overall current.
So Lou, you got me when I doubted you. Sorry about that. Now I know better.

RonKZ650 wrote:

Sorry to keep adding to the thread and continuing to not help with the original question, but anyone curious, Lou is exactly right. Did a few of my tests and found:
Did a slow rotation of the engine while checking current on the yellow/red wire to coil #2/3.
Total time 26 seconds.
Coil "on time" 24.1 seconds 1.9A
Coil "off" time 1.9 seconds
Average 1.7A
Left the key on with engine not running for 5 minutes. Both coils temperature rose approx 8 degrees from 57 to 65 degrees.
No need for me to even try points as there is no doubt they will be in the off state for a longer length of time and therby draw less overall current.
So Lou, you got me when I doubted you. Sorry about that. Now I know better.

No problem Ron. Half the stuff I know came from doubting others and finding out for myself, the same way you do. Sometimes the others were right and sometimes they were wrong. I've been wrong enough times to appreciate when someone doubts me.

kykz650 wrote: quote First question here been lurking for a while. I have a 78 kz650 and another parts bike that I took a Dyna III system off of. The 78 runs with the points ignition. I got the instalation instructions off dynateks website and followed them exactly. I installed it but have not timed it yet. But at this point I get NO SPARK at all. Do I need to time it first or shouldn't it still spark just not at the right time? unquote

----The Dyna III system should spark; regardless of timing if it is functional. If it isn't sparking, it is broke. You can go with the points OR contact Dynatek online customer support and see if they will take a look at the device.


kykz650 wrote: quote I have 12 vots going into the ignition box. I evenswapped the rotor and points back on again just to chek my coils and it fires right up. What should I check from here? My multimeter is very cheap but with the key on and bike not running if I check the green lead coming out of the ignition box that goes to the coil I read about .50v the black read exacty the same. unquote

---- There are two "signal" wires coming out of the Dyna III I think. One will be marked as a green wire and the other a black as these are standard Kaw color codes for the 2/3 and 1/4 coils respectively. I am not sure what type voltage should come out of these wires as the bike turns over but again, suspect that a chat with Dynatek customer support would answer this question. The red wire is voltage in and if your Dyna III is powered, and you are getting a small voltage out, I suspect knowing WHAT he voltage is supposed to be would be helpful.


kykz650 wrote: quote Is this normal or am I looking in the wrong place? Not too much electrical experience. I have tripled checked the hook up and everything looks good though. unquote

----I am not sure how a Dyna III is hooked up and would likely find comfort regarding connection correctness from their customer support.

With the key on and the engine not turning, the black wire to the coil and the green wire to the other coil will have about .5v on them. These are the negative sides of both coils. The positive sides of both coils should have around 12 volts on them. The positive wire to the coils may be red or yellow or striped.