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TOPIC: Fuel Injection running rich.

Fuel Injection running rich. 8 years 7 months ago #24583

  • KZCSI
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I'm still on the steeper portion of the learning curve and I'm still struggling with a fuel injection system that runs too rich. I'm trying to grok my way to a solution rather than addressing every possibility even though they may already be in line.

My latest decision point is: Are my injectors in need of a cleaning? I've had two professional fuel injection mechanics tell me that clogged or varnished injectors will always run lean. I've had some advice to the contrary saying that poorly atomized fuel mist will result in a too rich condition.

How about it clogged injectors, rich or lean? It can't be both.

KZCSI
www.KZ1300.com

Riders:
1968 BSA Shooting Star, 1970 BSA 650 Lightning, 1974 W3, 1976 KZ900, 1979 KZ750 Twin, 1981 KZ1300, 1982 KZ1100 Spectre, 1987 Yamaha Trailway, 2000 Valkyrie, 2006 Yamaha Roadliner S.

Projects:
1947 Indian Chief, 1980 KZ550, 1985 ZN1300
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Fuel Injection running rich. 8 years 7 months ago #24632

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Not enough information. What system is this? Generally I would suspect...

1)electrical connection
2)sensor
3)sensor out of adjustment

before messing with the injectors.

-Duck
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Fuel Injection running rich. 8 years 7 months ago #24637

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ostfuel injection systems are looking at a few things, engine temp, o2 sensor readings, and air flow, I know this basic, but you have to think like a computer to figure them out.
77 kz650, owned for over 25 years
77 ltd1000, current rider
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Fuel Injection running rich. 8 years 7 months ago #24656

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IIRC, it's a 83 KZ1300 :)

Generally, one or maybe two cylinders running rich or lean would indicate problems with the injectors, running rich or lean on all cylinders generally (99% of the time) indicates a prolem with the system.

I just looked at the parts diagrams on buykawasaki.com, and it does not appear to have either a MAP or MAF sensor, so that means it's an Alpha-N system. And that means the computer uses three inputs to determine the amount of fuel to inject, RPM, Engine Temp, and Throttle Position. I remember you had a problem with your Temp Sensor in the past, and got it fixed? I suspect that either the Engine Temp Sensor has gone bad again, or the TPS is out of adjustment. Have you been to the KZ1300 site to see what EFI help is available there?

Did you do the GM coil pak conversion (just trying to eliminate an ignition problem)?

Just for grins I think you should verify that you are getting proper voltage to the coils.

And no, I don't think a partially clogged injector will make it run rich, especially if it's all six cylinders. If it's one or two, then OK, strange things do happen. :)
When you go for your initial evaluation at the VA Medical Center, and they ask "Have you ever contemplated suicide", the correct answer is not "Sure multiple times every day, doesn't everyone?".
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Fuel Injection running rich. 8 years 7 months ago #24674

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Hi Steve,

All my sensors check out fine. I have two igniters and two DFI computers. I have swapped them every which way to no avail. The TPS still had the factory tamper paint on the screws so I know that it hadn't been messed with before I got started. For a while I was getting a code for the TPS but I managed to clean it and that cleared the code.

I just got my fuel pressure regulator back from Pouge Engineering. They charged me $90 to modify it so that it's adjustable. If I can't find the cause I'm going to dial down the pressure as a work around solution.

Regarding the GM Coil pack conversion. Check out my article in the articles section. That particular modification ranks right up there with magnets on your fuel line for better mileage.

I did check the voltage to the coils and found 12 volts. I did just now replace the coil wires and plug caps as most of the springs in the caps were gone. All of the plug caps were just resting on the plugs instead of gripping the threaded end of the plugs. Before I go adjusting the fuel pressure I'll run it with a new set of plugs to see if the wires and caps were the problem.

The folks at KZ1300.com are telling me to have my injectors cleaned as partially plugged injectors, according to them, will result in a rich condition. Pogue Engineering tells me that whomever said plugged injectors run rich has got it backwards.

You and I exchanged about my problem some months back. If you recall I said that my system was running at 35PSI and still held 20 PSI 24 hours later. Which tells me that my injectors are not leaking when closed.

Actually it's an 85 ZN1300. Fortunately, this bike is a long term project so I'm not without wheels.

Thank You

Bill
www.KZ1300.com

Riders:
1968 BSA Shooting Star, 1970 BSA 650 Lightning, 1974 W3, 1976 KZ900, 1979 KZ750 Twin, 1981 KZ1300, 1982 KZ1100 Spectre, 1987 Yamaha Trailway, 2000 Valkyrie, 2006 Yamaha Roadliner S.

Projects:
1947 Indian Chief, 1980 KZ550, 1985 ZN1300
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Fuel Injection running rich. 8 years 7 months ago #24708

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Well, considering that's it's been awhile since the temp sensor discussion, missing by two years on the model ain't to bad :D
Pogue is right, the info on the 1300 board is wrong, think about it, what are the chances of six separate injectors being wrong in exactly the same way (Ok, maybe greater than the chance of me winning the Lottery) :)

Assuming you have a manual for it, I'd look and see what it says regarding testing and setting the TPS. If the TPS is outputting (is that really a word?) a higher voltage than it should, then the computer is going to think that the engine is under a greater load than it actually is, and is going to inject more fuel to compensate.
but you have to think like a computer to figure them out.
Heh, not like I have not been accused of thinking like a computer a hundred times :laugh:
When you go for your initial evaluation at the VA Medical Center, and they ask "Have you ever contemplated suicide", the correct answer is not "Sure multiple times every day, doesn't everyone?".
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Fuel Injection running rich. 8 years 7 months ago #24713

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Hey Steve,

Well I put it back together and it ran fine for ten minutes till it started to bog when I opened the throttle. I took the seat off and there was that damn code for a bad throttle position sensor again. I should have replaced it the first time I saw the code a year ago.


I can get a new one for $500.00. I also have a set of carbs but I'd prefer to keep it fuel injected.

I'm sure I'm not finished with my troubles with this project. So please hang in there with me. I really appreciate the feed back.

Thank You
Bill

Post edited by: KZCSI, at: 2006/02/18 16:52
www.KZ1300.com

Riders:
1968 BSA Shooting Star, 1970 BSA 650 Lightning, 1974 W3, 1976 KZ900, 1979 KZ750 Twin, 1981 KZ1300, 1982 KZ1100 Spectre, 1987 Yamaha Trailway, 2000 Valkyrie, 2006 Yamaha Roadliner S.

Projects:
1947 Indian Chief, 1980 KZ550, 1985 ZN1300
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Fuel Injection running rich. 8 years 7 months ago #24747

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$500 for a TPS! I have a hard time wringing that much $ out of my pocket for a WHOLE BIKE :-)

Is this a concourse restoration or do you just want to ride it?
TPS is a potentiometer. With specs you can fabricate a suitable replacement. Without specs you can disassemble the bad one and measure the specs. If it is indeed bad, as per the FSM test procedire, I'd take it apart and see if it's not something mickeymouse like a bad solder joint.

If you just want to ride, I suggest putting the $500 toward a more modern comntroller.

I may well be facing the same shakedown and wallet squeeze on the 82GPz1100/KZ1100B2 (these model numbers are confusing). Finally fixed PO's damage to head and fished around in case for missing head parts. Will have her back together as soon as the gaskets get here and then attack the original problem that got PO messing with head in the first place. His description of symptoms suggest running lean....How that translated to "jumped timimg chain" is a mystery.

Where are you at?


-Duck
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Fuel Injection running rich. 8 years 7 months ago #24754

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Hey Duck,
I'm in Central Oregon, Bend to be exact. At first the readings were off the scale resistance wise so I dunked the TPS in denatured alcohol and twirled it about a bit. After blowing it out with compressed air the readings returned to just where they should have been. I suppose that now that I've decided that it's toast, I could get a bit more agressive with my attempts to fix it. I'll take it off again and see what needs to be done to see it's innards.

Thanks
Bill
KZCSI
www.KZ1300.com

Riders:
1968 BSA Shooting Star, 1970 BSA 650 Lightning, 1974 W3, 1976 KZ900, 1979 KZ750 Twin, 1981 KZ1300, 1982 KZ1100 Spectre, 1987 Yamaha Trailway, 2000 Valkyrie, 2006 Yamaha Roadliner S.

Projects:
1947 Indian Chief, 1980 KZ550, 1985 ZN1300
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Fuel Injection running rich. 8 years 7 months ago #24831

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Bend. I used to sell a lot of used unix hardware to a guy up there.

If you get it apart, take some photos with a scale and let me know the specs. Don't forget taper (how the resistance changes with position, most likely linear or logrithmic, I doubt it's anything funky). I may be able to scare up a suitable mil spec potentiometer for replacement. You'd have to fab a mount and a housing but if you can do this in home workshop it's way cheaper than $500.

-Duck
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Fuel Injection running rich. 8 years 7 months ago #24871

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81-84 (at least) GPz1100
84-85 GPz750 Turbo
Use the same TPS as yours, 21176-1004 is the part number.
$330.82 at https://www.ronayers.com/index.cfm although Z1 Enterprises may be able to get it cheaper.

And you can get a complete GPz750 Turbo or GPz1100 throttlebody on eBay for ~$100 and I need some other parts so I'd split the cost with you :laugh:

Test yours and if it actually bad PM me and we will work something out.
When you go for your initial evaluation at the VA Medical Center, and they ask "Have you ever contemplated suicide", the correct answer is not "Sure multiple times every day, doesn't everyone?".
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Fuel Injection running rich. 8 years 7 months ago #24899

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Hi Steve,

That's a great offer but I already made a deal for a complete set of throttle bodies with the TPS and the pressure regulator and the MAP sensor for $250.00.

How did you cross reference those part numbers?

Of course I do have a KZ1100 that needs to have the carbs reinstalled.

It really would be fun to have a generic fuel injection controler to use to replace carbs.

What do you know about Mega Squirt?

Thanks for the offer.

Bill
www.KZ1300.com

Riders:
1968 BSA Shooting Star, 1970 BSA 650 Lightning, 1974 W3, 1976 KZ900, 1979 KZ750 Twin, 1981 KZ1300, 1982 KZ1100 Spectre, 1987 Yamaha Trailway, 2000 Valkyrie, 2006 Yamaha Roadliner S.

Projects:
1947 Indian Chief, 1980 KZ550, 1985 ZN1300
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Fuel Injection running rich. 8 years 7 months ago #24907

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What do you know about Mega Squirt?
There are several of us here familiar with MegaSquirt, I know Duck is and there is at least one other that has installed several of them on VW's (can't remember the name right now), and I have one in the closet waiting for warm weather, plus I need one more :D

I went to the parts diagrams at buykawasaki.com and looked up the part numbers for 85 ZN1300, 81 and 84 GPz1100, and 84/85 GPz750 Turbo TPS Sensors, and they were all the same part number.

If your ignition system is not controlled by your EFI computer, then it's no problem to convert to MS.

I could find no reference to a MAP sensor in the parts diagrams for your bike at buykawasaki.com, hence my reference to Alpha-N above. I'll have to go look again :(

Ok, I looked again and I still can't find a MAP sensor listed anywhere, you sure you have one?
It would have two wires going to it, and would hook into the intake manifolds between the throttlebodies and the head, probably a hose coming off each manifold all tied into one hose that connects to the MAP sensor.
All I can find are an Air Temp sensor, an Engine Temp sensor, and a Throttle Position sensor.

Post edited by: steell, at: 2006/02/19 15:16
When you go for your initial evaluation at the VA Medical Center, and they ask "Have you ever contemplated suicide", the correct answer is not "Sure multiple times every day, doesn't everyone?".
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Fuel Injection running rich. 8 years 7 months ago #25026

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Hey Steve,
The MAP sensor on the 1300 is refered to as a vacuum sensor and works only with the ignition system. To that end you are 100% correct the DFI works only with three sensors. The throttle position sensor the engine temp sensor and the intake air sensor.

There are two terminals on the DFI computer that connect to the ingition module. These could serve to tell the DFI about engine speed so it's entirely possible that the systems could be seperated.

Of course now that you have found that the GPz's use the same TPS I think that these old sixes can be kept running forever, or at least till the supply of DFI computers run out.

Thanks for all your help.
Bill
KZCSI
www.KZ1300.com

Riders:
1968 BSA Shooting Star, 1970 BSA 650 Lightning, 1974 W3, 1976 KZ900, 1979 KZ750 Twin, 1981 KZ1300, 1982 KZ1100 Spectre, 1987 Yamaha Trailway, 2000 Valkyrie, 2006 Yamaha Roadliner S.

Projects:
1947 Indian Chief, 1980 KZ550, 1985 ZN1300
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Fuel Injection running rich. 8 years 6 months ago #25382

Those old fuel injection systems are junk.Kawasaki had trouble with them from the beginning.Thats why they quit making them.
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Fuel Injection running rich. 8 years 6 months ago #25428

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The GPz has the same three sensor setup.
Did not know it used the same TPS.
It's a simple system and should be reliable.

I don't know much about the megasquirt aside from reading their site. It looks pretty good.

Have been talking to an EE friend about doing a FI controller using a programmable gate array. Back of the envelope says cake with the three sensor. No improvement in efficiency or performance but we may try one just to see if we can make it work. Our thought is that the function of the controller, mapping sensor input to injector control output, can be done electronically without software, just like it used to be done mechanically.

-Duck
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Fuel Injection running rich. 8 years 6 months ago #25438

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rodneyo wrote:
Those old fuel injection systems are junk.Kawasaki had trouble with them from the beginning.Thats why they quit making them.
What's junk about them? Throttlebodies are fairly simple metal castings, not much to go wrong there, injectors are standard automotive type, and they are pretty reliable, sensors are pretty reliable, considering they are 20 years old and just now going bad, the EFI controllers are solid state and last next to forever as long as you keep good rubber mounts on them to isolate them from vibration. Many of the cuurent production Kawasaki's use the same type of EFI. I don't think there has been a single year since 1979 that Kawasaki has not had fuel injected models in their line up.
The 1980 KZ1000 Classic and the 1981 GPz1100 did have a problem because Kawasaki mounted the injectors directly in the head and heat took it's toll on them, but all the rest have been pretty reliable.

I think it's more a case of many people being scared of "New Fangled Stuff" and bad mouthing it, or people blaming the fuel injection for other problems and yanking it off the bike.

It's a whole lot simpler to get accurate fuel control from EFI than it is from carburators, show me a carb that will aotomatically adust the fuel for altitude, barometric pressure and temp. :D

Can't tell I'm firmly convinced that EFI is better can you :evil:

Post edited by: steell, at: 2006/02/21 19:13
When you go for your initial evaluation at the VA Medical Center, and they ask "Have you ever contemplated suicide", the correct answer is not "Sure multiple times every day, doesn't everyone?".
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Fuel Injection running rich. 8 years 6 months ago #25611

I can tell you because Ive been a technician for fifteen years.
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Fuel Injection running rich. 8 years 6 months ago #25616

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rodneyo wrote:
I can tell you because Ive been a technician for fifteen years.

Tell me what? Do you disagree with something I wrote? If so, what? Many on here have more than 15 years experience, I only have 40 myself, and have been working on fuel injection systems since the first mechanical ones arrived on the scene, well except for the early Rochester fuel injection system that Chevy released in 1957.

I am always interested in learning more, but just saying something is "junk" don't tell me anything, I need to know specifically what and why.

General statements not allowed, details are required :D
When you go for your initial evaluation at the VA Medical Center, and they ask "Have you ever contemplated suicide", the correct answer is not "Sure multiple times every day, doesn't everyone?".
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Fuel Injection running rich. 8 years 6 months ago #25648

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Yeah. Junk or not, It's just that we're putting new coversheets on all the TPS reports *before* they go out now. So if you could just remember to do that from now on, that'd be great. All right!
:laugh:

</office space>
1983 KZ1100-L1 "LTD Shaft"
Wiseco 10.5:1 1171 piston kit, bored by APE
Dyna 2000, Dyna S, Dyna grey coils, WG coil power mod, CB900 starter
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