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New Points and Static Timing ? 10 Feb 2016 06:32 #710267

  • kzdcw
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Haven't Posted in some time on this Forum. Been working on a 74' Honda Cb 750 K4 I acquired last year and in the process of getting it running again.

So now I'm re-focusing my attention to my 77' KZ1000A. I decided to purchase New points/condenser for it and re-nstall them.

Question I have is no matter by loosening the 2 mounting screws and turning the adjuster plate so that the heal of the points comes as close to the ignition advancer when the "F" mark is lined up with the Timing mark, I can't get it Statically Timed with a Volt-ohm meter when rotating the crank clockwise? I even tried rotating the mounting pate by loosening the 3 screws and rotate it all the way to allow the heal of the points to get as close to the ignition advancer as well?

I have the point gapped at .016 that gets me close but the points don't open until after the "F" mark and timing mark. It's a little to the left of these 2 marks but not dead on when it should be.

Will this be a problem? I've heard that these Daichi points can make it hard to time?

One thing I forgot to ask, when you set the points gap it always says to gap the points at the widest opening when rotating the crank clockwise. Should I set the point gap at the "T" mark? Or look for the widest opening of the points which alway seems to be to the left of the T mark. Didn't know if this would make any difference "Statically" timing this bike.
77' KZ1000A

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New Points and Static Timing ? 10 Feb 2016 07:35 #710277

  • 650ed
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The manual has several pages of instructions, pictures, etc. on how to set the timing using the static method plus timing light, plus dwell meter. I can give you a fairly easy way that will get you in a pretty close ballpark without a timing light or dwell meter, but you will need a 0.35 mm feeler gauge and a multi-meter or other device to test continuity. To be very precise, the timing light and dwell meter will be needed.

Before attempting to replace or adjust the points the following is important to understand; timing is comprised of two separate components, and BOTH of these components MUST be set properly if the engine is to run well:

--- The GAP – this is the distance the points spread apart when fully open. This is set by adjusting the points. The GAP is the element that determines the DWELL. In essence, the DWELL is the number of degrees of points cam rotation that the points are closed and this controls the amount of time the coils receive a charge before firing the spark plugs.

--- The TIMING of the initial opening of the points (the point at which the continuity across the points breaks) controls the precise instant that the coils receive the signal to fire the spark plugs. This is set by turning the backplate AFTER the gap is set.

Remove the points cover on the right side of engine. Under it you will see 2 sets of points. The set on the left fires cylinders 1 & 4; the set on the right fires 2 & 3. When replacing points observe carefully how the little bits and pieces are arranged where the wires attach. Some of those pieces are actually insulators and if you leave any of them out or put them back in the wrong place the points will be grounded and won't work. Take a very close look at the contact surfaces of the points. If they are pitted you really should replace them. You can sand down pitted points, but they will quickly pit again. Replace one set of points at a time so you can look at the other set in case you get the little bits confused.

When adjusting the points, use a 17 mm wrench to turn the nut NEAR the end of the crankshaft clockwise while looking in the hole above that nut. (Do NOT use a wrench on the smaller bolt on the very end of the crankshaft to turn the engine.) Inside that hole you will see a vertical pointer cast into the casing. As you turn the 17 mm nut you will see a 1 & 4 and F and T roll by and then you'll see a 2 & 3 and F and T roll by. Each F and T has a line next to it.

Here's the method I use for static timing. I turn OFF the ignition. I disconnect the green wire near one coil and the black wire near the other coil. (This is not in the book, but it makes checking continuity much easier for me.) After installing the new points or cleaning up the old ones, turn the 17 mm nut while watching the points. When points set 1&4 are at their widest gap adjust them (by loosening the 2 screws that hold the points to the backplate) so the gap equals 0.35 mm. Turn the 17 mm nut clockwise through a full revolution again and double check this gap. Then repeat this for points set 2&3. Now set your meter to test continuity and clip one wire to the leaf spring on points set 1&4 and clip the other wire to ground. Turn the 17 mm nut clockwise until the 1&4 "F" mark aligns with the pointer mentioned above. You want the continuity across point set 1&4 to just break when the F mark aligns with the pointer. The idea is that when the continuity just fails is when the points will fire their respective coil and cylinders. In order to adjust the point at which continuity fails you loosen the 3 screws that hold the backplate to the engine and slightly turn the backplate until the meter shows a break in continuity. Once you have the 1&4 set timed properly you can check the 2&3 set to make sure they break when the 2&3 F mark aligns with the pointer (they should or something is not right). Don't forget to plug in the green and black coil wires when you are done, and put a little grease on the rubbing block felt. Assuming you are using new points of the correct type this should enable you to get the timing very close. Trying this with old points may give poor results, especially if the points are pitted and/or the rubbing blocks are worn.

After you have set the gap (which in effect sets the dwell) and the timing using the method above you can use a dwell meter and timing light to fine tune dwell and timing. If you have followed the above procedure carefully, very little if any fine tuning will be needed.
Sorry this is so long. It's not as difficult as it sounds. Ed
1977 KZ650-C1 Original Owner - Stock (with additional invisible FIAMM horn)

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New Points and Static Timing ? 10 Feb 2016 07:48 #710278

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Ed, I"ll repeat your above procedure again. but I kind of think I've done this before with same results.

2 questions: Can I set the point gap at the "T" reference mark. Or do I continue rotating the crank clockwise a little more to give the points the widest opening? It seems like If I adjust points when they are just opening at the "F" mark measure with the volt-ohm meter, then the points are opened way to far?

Also, on the Honda CBN 750 Forum, they say these Daichi Points are terrible to set the timing with?
77' KZ1000A

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New Points and Static Timing ? 10 Feb 2016 08:46 #710282

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When I got my KZ650B1 I couldn't get the timing set, someone had fiddled with it and that's why it was a none runner. There are two ways the timing can be altered, although you are normally rotating the plate there's quite a bit of adjustment with the points on the plate and they can be moved to a position where everything will not then line up properly for both sets of points.
1978 KZ1000A2 Wiseco 1075 kit
1977 KZ650B1
1973 Triumph Tiger TR7V
1968 BSA Victor Special 441
2015 Triumph Thunderbird LT
1980 Suzuki SP400

Old enough to know better, still too young to care

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New Points and Static Timing ? 10 Feb 2016 11:21 #710302

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kzdcw wrote: Ed, I"ll repeat your above procedure again. but I kind of think I've done this before with same results.

2 questions: Can I set the point gap at the "T" reference mark. Or do I continue rotating the crank clockwise a little more to give the points the widest opening? It seems like If I adjust points when they are just opening at the "F" mark measure with the volt-ohm meter, then the points are opened way to far?

Also, on the Honda CBN 750 Forum, they say these Daichi Points are terrible to set the timing with?


The brand of points has no bearing whatsoever on setting the timing. Please take some time and read through my process again carefully. Your question above shows that I have not clearly communicated the process.

You do not set the points gap at the "F", "T", or any other any particular crank position because setting the points gap has nothing to do with crank position. In other words, pay no attention to the crank position when setting the points gap. You simply set the points gap by rotating the crank until the points are at their widest position, then adjust the gap until it is 0.35mm. Once that is done you don't need to fiddle with the gap again.

After the points gap is set you then set the timing - that is a totally separate task. You set the timing by loosening and rotating the backplate until the continuity between the points breaks just when the "F" mark aligns with the pointer. When you have done that the points will be very close to perfectly set, and then you can use a timing light and dwell meter to fine tune if needed. Ed
1977 KZ650-C1 Original Owner - Stock (with additional invisible FIAMM horn)

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New Points and Static Timing ? 10 Feb 2016 16:39 #710341

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kzdcw wrote: . . . 77' KZ1000A. . . .




Good Fortune! :)
1973 Z1
KZ900 LTD
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New Points and Static Timing ? 10 Feb 2016 17:11 #710355

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Ed, I'll recheck point gap and timing tomorrow when I get home from work. Just want to re-iterate, once I set the point gap at it's widest opening, I " Don't Set it Again". Leave it Alone, is that right?

Would setting the point timing adjustable plates in the middle slotted adjustment as with the backplate , also in the middle adjustment, be a good starting point before using the volt-ohm meter test?

And Thank You Patton for the Picture.
77' KZ1000A

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New Points and Static Timing ? 10 Feb 2016 17:22 #710357

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Right. Once the points are set to 0.35mm at their widest gap you don't need to touch them again. That gap controls the dwell which is the amount degrees of crankshaft rotation during which the points are open and closed. That dwell remains constant once the points are set regardless of the relationship between the points and the crankshaft position. That points gap must be set before the timing is set.

The timing, which is set by rotating the backplate, controls when the points open and close and therefore at which position of the crankshaft the points trigger the firing of the coils and spark plugs. That's why the timing is set using the "F" mark and the pointer. Ed
1977 KZ650-C1 Original Owner - Stock (with additional invisible FIAMM horn)

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New Points and Static Timing ? 10 Feb 2016 18:09 #710367

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On the 1977 KZ1000, loosen the 2 timing screws on the adjusting plate and use a screwdriver in the pry points to initiate separation of the contacts as the F-mark aligns with the case mark.

If the adjusting plate (held by 2 timing screws) will not travel far enough to allow correct timing adjustment, loosen the 3 screws holding the mounting plate and rotate the mounting plate to provide more room for adjustment of the 2 screw adjusting plate.

The adjusting plate (2 screws and pry points) is the means for fine adjustment of timing.

The mounting plate aka backing plate with 3 screws in 3 elongated holes may be rotated as a means toward getting closer to alignment of the F-mark. But final timing F-mark alignment is best done with the pry points for the 2 screw adjusting plate after the 3 screw mounting plate has been locked down into a position whereby the pry points may be used to achieve the finest timing F-mark alignment.

In other words, rotation of the 3 screw mounting/backing plate is to provide a position whereby the 2 screw adjusting plate may be used to achieve F mark alignment as the contacts begin to separate.

Good Fortune! :)
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Last edit: by Patton.

New Points and Static Timing ? 11 Feb 2016 01:35 #710380

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I'll Give it a Go this afternoon :lol: :lol: Thanks so much Again :) :)
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New Points and Static Timing ? 11 Feb 2016 14:40 #710499

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Patton & Ed, It's a No Go :( I adjusted the points gap exactly at the widest gap to a loose .014 and no go .016", so I know the gap is correct even after rotating crank clockwise several times. Have not touched point gap adjustment again.

So on to Static Timing adjustment. Set 1&4 at "F" mark with pointer. Points don't open until almost #1 mark on ignition advancer plate with timing adjustment plates ( 2 screws ) adjusted all the way in the slot to get the heels of the points touching the ignition advancer raised lobe portion. I even adjusted the back plate ( 3 screws ) at max too to get as close to the heels of the points. Points 2 & 3 has about the same results. I understand how it works which made me wonder if the cam lobe of the advancer was worn down, because there's No Way at the "F" mark on either points that they will open with all the adjustments at the points timing plates or back plate set at max.

So I pulled the ignition advancer and one thing I can tell you is the the cam lobe of the advancer has a lot of grooves in it that you can feel with your finger even though they appear as not being too deep.

My assumption is that this advancer is to worn down to much to make the timing adjustment correctly.

Can you compensate this wear by elongating the slots in the back plate or adjuster plates? Or is it better to find another ignition advancer?

I purchased parts from Brian on this site before. Maybe he has one or someone else that I can try?
77' KZ1000A

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New Points and Static Timing ? 11 Feb 2016 18:31 #710538

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Perhaps the heels on the points have worn down past serviceable condition.





Good Fortune! :)

Edit -- I just noticed that the points at hand are new.
I'm not familiar with Daichi points.
Maybe they are the wrong points for this application?
Are the old points available for visual comparison?

I could be wrong, but don't suspect lobe wear as being the culprit.

The following pics are for illustration only, and probably not an exact match of the stock parts at hand.



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KZ900 LTD
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Last edit: by Patton.
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