Forum

Login

Register

By registering at the KZrider.com community, you agree to the following terms. KZrider.com reserves the right to remove any posting it finds unsuitable. Members who refuse to play by the following rules will be excluded from the discussion board.

PRODUCT OR SERVICE ADVERTISING IS STRICTLY LIMITED
KZrider is more than a website. Its members comprise a community of KZ enthusiasts dedicated to encouraging and preserving our sport and passion for Kawasaki Z, Z1 and KZ motorcycles. We pursue our passion because we enjoy it, not to make money from it. To that end KZrider.com is not a place for you to solicit sales of any kind. No member is allowed to refer to their own business, or any business to which he/she is associated, through the discussion forum or personal messaging system (U2U). Be aware, the U2U feature has been abused in the past. If any member solicits an unwelcomed solicitation through the U2U system please report that solicitation to the Administrator or Moderators promptly.

There are four exceptions to this policy:
1. As permitted in Classifieds (consumer-to-consumer transactions).
2. An item may be offered for sale as a consumer-to-consumer transaction in any forum where there exists reasonable expectation of being welcomed by another member who has previously posted in the thread ("cold calls" and "door-to-door" solicitations are prohibited).
3. Each member is allowed a simple link (somesite.com) in their signature, which link shall include no description of any kind.
4. Paying advertisers are allowed to post in the Vendor forum.

KEEP IT CLEAN
You may not post libelous or defamatory messages or materials, or include links to such materials in your postings. You may not post messages that are obscene, violent, abusive or designed to harass or intimidate another individual. Pornography, Warez, or any other illegal transactions may not be posted or included in members profiles. No blatant nudity.

BE CIVILIZED
Don't use racial, ethnic, or gender slurs, religiously derogatory comments or any other personal discriminations even in jest. Use of slurs needlessly offends people - whether or not they're a member of the group you've insulted. Respect others' religious beliefs and culture. Recognize that others have religious and personal beliefs which may differ from yours. Stay away from political debates. Keep the language and behaviour appropriate.

USE DESCRIPTIVE THREAD TITLES
When you post a new thread, please give users some idea of what it contains in the title. Thread titles like "Help" or "Check this out!" are cheap ways of getting users to look at a thread they might not care about, and would not have clicked on had the full title "Help, I need credit card numbers!" been used. Furthermore, it helps stop multiple threads on the same subject. When starting a new thread, describe the content of your thread clearly in the 'Subject' line of your post. Don't use vague subjects. Use descriptive and specific subject lines. This helps others decide whether your particular words of wisdom relate to a topic they care about. For example: "HELP!!" is not an appropriate subject and neither is "My bike doesn't run".

PLEASE DON'T SHOUT!
That cap lock key wasn't invented to help you get your message across. Messages written in all caps are annoying, hard to read, and loud.

HAS IT BEEN POSTED ALREADY?
Please look for an existing thread on a subject before you post one about it. Chances are good that your question has already been answered. There is a search feature on these forums, use it. Starting topics that have already been answered in great detail is a waste of everyone's time. Look to see if information you're about to post has just been posted by someone else. Then go ahead and post.

WE HAVE SECTIONS FOR A REASON
The Technical Forums have different sections for a reason. If you're not sure, use your best judgment. 

DON'T CROSS-POST
Cross-posting is when you post the same message multiple times in various threads or forums. We only need to see it once guys. 

STAY ON TOPIC
Keep threads on topic. If you've got something completely unrelated to say then start a new thread. Unresponsive solicitations for consumer-to-consumer sale are prohibited as being unrelated and off topic, but solicitations for consumer-to-consumer sale may be posted in Classifieds.

CONSIDER THE IMPACT OF YOUR WORDS BEFORE POSTING
Adhere to the same high standards (or higher) of behaviour online that you follow in real life. In real life, most people are fairly polite and law abiding. The same rules of behaviour are expected on any list.

MESSAGES SHOULD CONTRIBUTE TO THE TOPIC BEING DISCUSSED
or introduce a relevant idea. If you've read enough threads, you've already learned how annoying it is to go through "Me Too" posts. A "Me Too" is a post that says "I agree with what the other guy said" and otherwise does not add to the content. If you have a comment about someone else's post, tell them via U2U or email. Generally speaking, unless it concerns the entire group and is within the group's stated purpose, you should reply only to the author. Avoid replies or responses to the whole list of yes, no, or "I agree!". This is meaningless and you too would be annoyed to open such a message.

WELCOME TO KZRIDER
If you are a new member, introduce yourself by posting to the New Member Forum. While it's nice to welcome a new member, only do so if they have posted in the New Members forum. There is no need for 50 welcome posts in a technical forum thread.

U2U IS A WONDERFUL FEATURE
Please don't start a topic that is directed at one person that could be put into a U2U to them. If you have a message for one or two posters, use U2U or email.

PICTURE PERFECT
Images & attachments may be posted as long as they are not explicive or offensive. Images are limited in size to 2mb. The Project Forum is for members' rides only and is an ideal place to document your rebuild.

FLAME-WARS
Don't even start them, they will be ended, quickly, and you'll find yourself on the short bus. Flaming: Personal attacks in cyberspace can be particularly vicious. Flaming is the rather nasty art of attacking others on a personal level.

  • Register
Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me
  • Page:
  • 1
  • 2

TOPIC: cam timing problems z1000

cam timing problems z1000 5 years 1 month ago #312347

  • MAFED
  • MAFED's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Member
  • Posts: 5
:( Hi all,

As part of the ‘restoration’ of my 1977 Z1000, I have refurbished the cylinder head valves etc. After fitting the cams and timing chain I rotated the crank by hand and guess what the cam timing is out even though I have followed the instructions to the latter; both cam marks line up with the cylinder head and the 28th pin mark lines up correctly, but every time I turn the engine after approx 350 degrees number 1 inlet valve begins to open as number 1 piston is just coming up to TDC!!!! Any body offer any help, should the cam lobes when setting the cam timing be horizontal or straight up as one other post suggested?

Many thanks

Stressed Z1000 owner
The administrator has disabled public write access.

cam timing problems z1000 5 years 1 month ago #312356

  • Motor Head
  • Motor Head's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Member
  • FIX UP YOUR BIKE RIGHT AND CHEAP
  • Posts: 5242
  • Thank you received: 388
Maybe I can help, Is your cams with the marks lined up to the valve cover gasket surface as you stated? Then the cams have a notch on the right end, these should be pointing EX to the front, IN to the rear also lined up with the gasket surface. Now if this looks right, I believe that when all marks are correct that you are not on the Firing stroke for #1 but 360 out. Most engines time this way. So you would see that you would be approaching valve overlap when you were looking at having your intake moving. Valve over lap is at TDC but with a 4 stroke engine TDC happens twice in a cycle. If it is done according to your book and it all turns freely, test your compression. It will suck if your timing is wrong. Just make sure that it all turns by hand before engaging the starter.:)
1982 KZ1000LTD K2 Vance & Hines 4-1 ACCEL COILS Added Vetter fairing & Bags. FOX Racing rear Shocks, Braced Swing-arm, Fork Brace, Progressive Fork Springs RT Gold Emulators, APE Valve Springs, 1166 Big Bore kit, RS34's, GPZ cams.
1980 KZ550LTD C1 Stock SOLD Miss it
1979 MAZDA RX7 in the works, 13B...
The administrator has disabled public write access.

cam timing problems z1000 5 years 1 month ago #312360

  • RonKZ650
  • RonKZ650's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Member
  • Posts: 3206
  • Thank you received: 79
Many times the wrong marks are used. Use this mark for exhaust.
kz1000camtiming1-62e1d3a0b7b80d94f1ba5d6a5d115a8b.jpg
The administrator has disabled public write access.

cam timing problems z1000 5 years 1 month ago #312361

  • RonKZ650
  • RonKZ650's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Member
  • Posts: 3206
  • Thank you received: 79
Use this mark for intake. If you turned the engine over using any other marks, might as well disassemble now as you have bent valves.
kz1000camtiming2-902fa304b2704b901bc94ab0066aa00f.jpg
The administrator has disabled public write access.

cam timing problems z1000 5 years 1 month ago #312366

  • Old Man Rock
  • Old Man Rock's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Member
  • Posts: 6231
  • Thank you received: 207
As Ron pointed out... also notice your cam lobe orientations....

NOTE: This is for a KZ900 head with performance cams and adjustable sprockets so yours may slightly be different but regarding the 28th tooth count and lobe orientations, should be reaaaaaaaaaaaal close...

This image is from the right side of the bike, pistons 1/4 TDC....
CAM_Lobe_Orientations-7820bb025a751a5e5bf821b0a97fe2b3.JPG
1976 KZ900-A4
MTC 1075cc.
Camshafts: Kawi GPZ-1100 .375 lift
Head: P&P via Larry Cavanaugh
ZX636 suspension
Keihin, 29mm CR specials
Kerker 4-1, 1.5" comp baffle.
Dyna-S E.I.
Earls 10 row Oil Cooler
Acewell 2802 Series Speedo/Tach
Innovate LC1 Wideband 02 AFR meter

Phoenix, Az
The administrator has disabled public write access.

cam timing problems z1000 5 years 1 month ago #312367

  • Old Man Rock
  • Old Man Rock's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Member
  • Posts: 6231
  • Thank you received: 207
As reviewed in the above image, it's easy to be off in the lobe tip to head decking...

Corrected....

Cam_Sprocket_Lobe_Orientations_off.JPG
1976 KZ900-A4
MTC 1075cc.
Camshafts: Kawi GPZ-1100 .375 lift
Head: P&P via Larry Cavanaugh
ZX636 suspension
Keihin, 29mm CR specials
Kerker 4-1, 1.5" comp baffle.
Dyna-S E.I.
Earls 10 row Oil Cooler
Acewell 2802 Series Speedo/Tach
Innovate LC1 Wideband 02 AFR meter

Phoenix, Az
Last Edit: 5 years 1 month ago by Old Man Rock.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

cam timing problems z1000 5 years 1 month ago #312377

  • Old Man Rock
  • Old Man Rock's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Member
  • Posts: 6231
  • Thank you received: 207
Your advancer may be different (Patton has an updated procedure for the KZ1000)....

Again, for a KZ900, seems to be ~ the same though....
I have the later advancer then depicted in the shop manual for mark alignment, otherwise should be ~ the same...

Please someone correct if incorrect!
CAM_Timing_Procedure_OEM-c090444f078593f37421dc96779cdbb9.JPG
1976 KZ900-A4
MTC 1075cc.
Camshafts: Kawi GPZ-1100 .375 lift
Head: P&P via Larry Cavanaugh
ZX636 suspension
Keihin, 29mm CR specials
Kerker 4-1, 1.5" comp baffle.
Dyna-S E.I.
Earls 10 row Oil Cooler
Acewell 2802 Series Speedo/Tach
Innovate LC1 Wideband 02 AFR meter

Phoenix, Az
The administrator has disabled public write access.

cam timing problems z1000 5 years 1 month ago #312384

  • TerryK
  • TerryK's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Member
  • Posts: 568
We are on the right track here, but you MUST be absolutely certain you are on the right pin (28th). It's really easy to miss it by one.
1977 KZ1000
GSXR swingarm and rear brake
WM6 rear Akront rim
Wiseco 1075c pistons
34mm Mikuni flat slide carbs
Dyna S ignition
Lockhart oil cooler
Wiseco pipe

Ontario, Canada
Last Edit: 5 years 1 month ago by TerryK.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

cam timing problems z1000 5 years 1 month ago #312412

  • Patton
  • Patton's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 16667
  • Thank you received: 985
Likely see the style advancer shown below when seeking to align the T mark with the permanent case mark, used to fix the crankshaft at Top Dead Center incident to assuring correct cam timing.

Good Luck! :)

[Click on image to enhance view]

advancer_F_II_TDC_marks-c21a35f9479b6fb35e6ab84345d50eb8.JPG
The administrator has disabled public write access.

cam timing problems z1000 5 years 1 month ago #312445

  • MAFED
  • MAFED's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Member
  • Posts: 5
Hi Motor Head,

Great advice, it now begins to make a lot more sense! It seems the lobes are the key to this, it explains why the inlet valve is just beginning to open as #1 piston is coming up to TDC.

Many thanks

Mark:)
The administrator has disabled public write access.

cam timing problems z1000 5 years 1 month ago #312447

  • MAFED
  • MAFED's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Member
  • Posts: 5
Hi Ronk,

Many thanks for the pictures and your sound guideance, will attemt to refit cams over next few days will keep you posted.

Cheers

Mark
The administrator has disabled public write access.

cam timing problems z1000 5 years 1 month ago #312448

  • MAFED
  • MAFED's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Member
  • Posts: 5
Hi old man rock,

Your pictures explain it all! Thats where I am going wrong, I am looking at the lobes being symeetrically opposite each other, looking at this pic the inlet is slightly above the head.

Many thanks

Mark
The administrator has disabled public write access.

cam timing problems z1000 5 years 1 month ago #312451

  • MAFED
  • MAFED's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Member
  • Posts: 5
Cheers Patton,

This is the advancer on my engine, my old manual depicts another type, thanks for your help.

Mark
The administrator has disabled public write access.

cam timing problems z1000 5 years 1 month ago #312469

  • keith1
  • keith1's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Member
  • Posts: 1727
RonKZ650 wrote:
Use this mark for intake. If you turned the engine over using any other marks, might as well disassemble now as you have bent valves.



he rotated by hand and didnt mention any resistance...all is not lost....B)
The administrator has disabled public write access.

cam timing problems z1000 5 years 1 month ago #312470

  • keith1
  • keith1's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Member
  • Posts: 1727
Patton wrote:
Likely see the style advancer shown below when seeking to align the T mark with the permanent case mark, used to fix the crankshaft at Top Dead Center incident to assuring correct cam timing.

Good Luck! :)

[Click on image to enhance view]



this is all about the cams and the timing marks on the cam sprockets...read the manual and re-read it again...count the 28 4 times using a magic marker with a friend verifying at least twice and then put on top sprocket....DONE....
The administrator has disabled public write access.

cam timing problems z1000 5 years 1 month ago #312471

  • bountyhunter
  • bountyhunter's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Member
  • Posts: 6419
  • Thank you received: 226
MAFED wrote:
:( Hi all,

As part of the ‘restoration’ of my 1977 Z1000, I have refurbished the cylinder head valves etc. After fitting the cams and timing chain I rotated the crank by hand and guess what the cam timing is out even though I have followed the instructions to the latter; both cam marks line up with the cylinder head and the 28th pin mark lines up correctly, but every time I turn the engine after approx 350 degrees number 1 inlet valve begins to open as number 1 piston is just coming up to TDC!!
The timing may be off, but there is some valve overlap. The manual on mine shows the inlet valve opens 30 degrees before TDC. The exhaust valve closes at 30 degrees after TDC, so there is a 60 degree overlap where they are both slightly open.

Hope that helps.
1979 KZ-750 Twin
Last Edit: 5 years 1 month ago by bountyhunter.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

cam timing problems z1000 5 years 1 month ago #312506

  • TerryK
  • TerryK's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Member
  • Posts: 568
keith1 wrote:
Patton wrote:
Likely see the style advancer shown below when seeking to align the T mark with the permanent case mark, used to fix the crankshaft at Top Dead Center incident to assuring correct cam timing.

Good Luck! :)

[Click on image to enhance view]



this is all about the cams and the timing marks on the cam sprockets...read the manual and re-read it again...count the 28 4 times using a magic marker with a friend verifying at least twice and then put on top sprocket....DONE....

Right right right! Don't rely on what the cam lobes look like. Go by the marks and the pin.
1977 KZ1000
GSXR swingarm and rear brake
WM6 rear Akront rim
Wiseco 1075c pistons
34mm Mikuni flat slide carbs
Dyna S ignition
Lockhart oil cooler
Wiseco pipe

Ontario, Canada
The administrator has disabled public write access.

cam timing problems z1000 5 years 1 month ago #312507

  • Patton
  • Patton's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 16667
  • Thank you received: 985
keith1 wrote:
Patton wrote:
Likely see the style advancer shown below when seeking to align the T mark with the permanent case mark, used to fix the crankshaft at Top Dead Center incident to assuring correct cam timing.

Good Luck! :)

[Click on image to enhance view]



this is all about the cams and the timing marks on the cam sprockets...read the manual and re-read it again...count the 28 4 times using a magic marker with a friend verifying at least twice and then put on top sprocket....DONE....


this is all about the cams and the timing marks on the cam sprockets...read the manual and re-read it again...

Yes, as shown in the manual page posted by OMR regarding cam timing, which pictures the original advancer before it was changed in January 1974.

As provided in the manual, the crankshaft is first rotated to TDC (Top Dead Center) by aligning T mark on the advancer. The advancer's T mark is important when dealing with cam timing. The other marks on the advancer may be ignored incident to cam timing.

The original advancer with 5 degress BTDC (Before Top Dead Center) was modified in Jan 1974 to 20 degrees BTDC.

The 1977 KZ1000 in question has the 20 degree advancer.

The mark circled in green on the point cam rotor was added later to help orient the rotor and avoid reassembling it 180 degrees off.

Good Luck! :)

[Click on image to enhance view]

ADVANCER_COMPARE-493817ba67f44f3ee3990f5670ffb74b.JPG
Last Edit: 5 years 1 month ago by Patton.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

cam timing problems z1000 5 years 1 month ago #312584

  • Patton
  • Patton's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 16667
  • Thank you received: 985
adv_T_compare.JPG
The administrator has disabled public write access.

cam timing problems z1000 5 years 1 month ago #312632

  • Old Man Rock
  • Old Man Rock's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Member
  • Posts: 6231
  • Thank you received: 207
"Don't rely on what the cam lobes look like. "...

I'm not so sure this would be a correct statement regardless of what advancer you have installed in your engine...

Even with the later model I have in my engine, the lobe tips will be aimed at each other and should end up at head decking as depicted in the corrected image, right hand side.

I also have performance cams (105 lobe centers) and adjustable sprockets and the cam lobe tips still are at head deck....

Other wise, your valve timing opening & closings would be off...

No matter, seems he as OEM cams and sprockets so outside of which advancer, just follow the manual for TDC (T) and cam sprocket marks to head decking, one pin up and 28 pins over you should be good to go....

OMR
1976 KZ900-A4
MTC 1075cc.
Camshafts: Kawi GPZ-1100 .375 lift
Head: P&P via Larry Cavanaugh
ZX636 suspension
Keihin, 29mm CR specials
Kerker 4-1, 1.5" comp baffle.
Dyna-S E.I.
Earls 10 row Oil Cooler
Acewell 2802 Series Speedo/Tach
Innovate LC1 Wideband 02 AFR meter

Phoenix, Az
The administrator has disabled public write access.
  • Page:
  • 1
  • 2
Keyword