Forum
  • Register
Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me
  • Page:
  • 1
  • 2

TOPIC: cam timing problems z1000

cam timing problems z1000 7 years 7 months ago #312347

  • MAFED
  • MAFED's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 5
  • Thank you received: 0
:( Hi all,

As part of the ‘restoration’ of my 1977 Z1000, I have refurbished the cylinder head valves etc. After fitting the cams and timing chain I rotated the crank by hand and guess what the cam timing is out even though I have followed the instructions to the latter; both cam marks line up with the cylinder head and the 28th pin mark lines up correctly, but every time I turn the engine after approx 350 degrees number 1 inlet valve begins to open as number 1 piston is just coming up to TDC!!!! Any body offer any help, should the cam lobes when setting the cam timing be horizontal or straight up as one other post suggested?

Many thanks

Stressed Z1000 owner

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

cam timing problems z1000 7 years 7 months ago #312356

  • Motor Head
  • Motor Head's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Member
  • Member
  • FIX UP YOUR BIKE RIGHT AND CHEAP
  • Posts: 5133
  • Thank you received: 383
Maybe I can help, Is your cams with the marks lined up to the valve cover gasket surface as you stated? Then the cams have a notch on the right end, these should be pointing EX to the front, IN to the rear also lined up with the gasket surface. Now if this looks right, I believe that when all marks are correct that you are not on the Firing stroke for #1 but 360 out. Most engines time this way. So you would see that you would be approaching valve overlap when you were looking at having your intake moving. Valve over lap is at TDC but with a 4 stroke engine TDC happens twice in a cycle. If it is done according to your book and it all turns freely, test your compression. It will suck if your timing is wrong. Just make sure that it all turns by hand before engaging the starter.:)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

1982 KZ1000LTD K2 Vance & Hines 4-1 ACCEL COILS Added Vetter fairing & Bags. FOX Racing rear Shocks, Braced Swing-arm, Fork Brace, Progressive Fork Springs RT Gold Emulators, APE Valve Springs, 1166 Big Bore kit, RS34's, GPZ cams.
1980 KZ550LTD C1 Stock SOLD Miss it
1979 MAZDA RX7 in the works, 13B...

cam timing problems z1000 7 years 7 months ago #312360

  • RonKZ650
  • RonKZ650's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 3538
  • Thank you received: 134
Many times the wrong marks are used. Use this mark for exhaust.
Attachments:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

cam timing problems z1000 7 years 7 months ago #312361

  • RonKZ650
  • RonKZ650's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 3538
  • Thank you received: 134
Use this mark for intake. If you turned the engine over using any other marks, might as well disassemble now as you have bent valves.
Attachments:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

cam timing problems z1000 7 years 7 months ago #312366

  • Old Man Rock
  • Old Man Rock's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 6228
  • Thank you received: 217
As Ron pointed out... also notice your cam lobe orientations....

NOTE: This is for a KZ900 head with performance cams and adjustable sprockets so yours may slightly be different but regarding the 28th tooth count and lobe orientations, should be reaaaaaaaaaaaal close...

This image is from the right side of the bike, pistons 1/4 TDC....
Attachments:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

1976 KZ900-A4
MTC 1075cc.
Camshafts: Kawi GPZ-1100 .375 lift
Head: P&P via Larry Cavanaugh
ZX636 suspension
Keihin, 29mm CR specials
Kerker 4-1, 1.5" comp baffle.
Dyna-S E.I.
Earls 10 row Oil Cooler
Acewell 2802 Series Speedo/Tach
Innovate LC1 Wideband 02 AFR meter

Phoenix, Az

cam timing problems z1000 7 years 7 months ago #312367

  • Old Man Rock
  • Old Man Rock's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 6228
  • Thank you received: 217
As reviewed in the above image, it's easy to be off in the lobe tip to head decking...

Corrected....

Attachments:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

1976 KZ900-A4
MTC 1075cc.
Camshafts: Kawi GPZ-1100 .375 lift
Head: P&P via Larry Cavanaugh
ZX636 suspension
Keihin, 29mm CR specials
Kerker 4-1, 1.5" comp baffle.
Dyna-S E.I.
Earls 10 row Oil Cooler
Acewell 2802 Series Speedo/Tach
Innovate LC1 Wideband 02 AFR meter

Phoenix, Az
Last Edit: by Old Man Rock.

cam timing problems z1000 7 years 7 months ago #312377

  • Old Man Rock
  • Old Man Rock's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 6228
  • Thank you received: 217
Your advancer may be different (Patton has an updated procedure for the KZ1000)....

Again, for a KZ900, seems to be ~ the same though....
I have the later advancer then depicted in the shop manual for mark alignment, otherwise should be ~ the same...

Please someone correct if incorrect!
Attachments:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

1976 KZ900-A4
MTC 1075cc.
Camshafts: Kawi GPZ-1100 .375 lift
Head: P&P via Larry Cavanaugh
ZX636 suspension
Keihin, 29mm CR specials
Kerker 4-1, 1.5" comp baffle.
Dyna-S E.I.
Earls 10 row Oil Cooler
Acewell 2802 Series Speedo/Tach
Innovate LC1 Wideband 02 AFR meter

Phoenix, Az

cam timing problems z1000 7 years 7 months ago #312384

  • TerryK
  • TerryK's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 577
  • Thank you received: 2
We are on the right track here, but you MUST be absolutely certain you are on the right pin (28th). It's really easy to miss it by one.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

1977 KZ1000
GSXR swingarm and rear brake
WM6 rear Akront rim
Wiseco 1075c pistons
34mm Mikuni flat slide carbs
Dyna S ignition
Lockhart oil cooler
Wiseco pipe

Ontario, Canada
Last Edit: by TerryK.

cam timing problems z1000 7 years 7 months ago #312412

  • Patton
  • Patton's Avatar
  • Away
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 18266
  • Thank you received: 1229
Likely see the style advancer shown below when seeking to align the T mark with the permanent case mark, used to fix the crankshaft at Top Dead Center incident to assuring correct cam timing.

Good Luck! :)

[Click on image to enhance view]

Attachments:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

cam timing problems z1000 7 years 7 months ago #312445

  • MAFED
  • MAFED's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 5
  • Thank you received: 0
Hi Motor Head,

Great advice, it now begins to make a lot more sense! It seems the lobes are the key to this, it explains why the inlet valve is just beginning to open as #1 piston is coming up to TDC.

Many thanks

Mark:)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

cam timing problems z1000 7 years 7 months ago #312447

  • MAFED
  • MAFED's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 5
  • Thank you received: 0
Hi Ronk,

Many thanks for the pictures and your sound guideance, will attemt to refit cams over next few days will keep you posted.

Cheers

Mark

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

cam timing problems z1000 7 years 7 months ago #312448

  • MAFED
  • MAFED's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 5
  • Thank you received: 0
Hi old man rock,

Your pictures explain it all! Thats where I am going wrong, I am looking at the lobes being symeetrically opposite each other, looking at this pic the inlet is slightly above the head.

Many thanks

Mark

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

cam timing problems z1000 7 years 7 months ago #312451

  • MAFED
  • MAFED's Avatar Topic Author
  • Offline
  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 5
  • Thank you received: 0
Cheers Patton,

This is the advancer on my engine, my old manual depicts another type, thanks for your help.

Mark

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

cam timing problems z1000 7 years 7 months ago #312469

  • keith1
  • keith1's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 1727
  • Thank you received: 0
RonKZ650 wrote:

Use this mark for intake. If you turned the engine over using any other marks, might as well disassemble now as you have bent valves.




he rotated by hand and didnt mention any resistance...all is not lost....B)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

cam timing problems z1000 7 years 7 months ago #312470

  • keith1
  • keith1's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 1727
  • Thank you received: 0
Patton wrote:

Likely see the style advancer shown below when seeking to align the T mark with the permanent case mark, used to fix the crankshaft at Top Dead Center incident to assuring correct cam timing.

Good Luck! :)

[Click on image to enhance view]



this is all about the cams and the timing marks on the cam sprockets...read the manual and re-read it again...count the 28 4 times using a magic marker with a friend verifying at least twice and then put on top sprocket....DONE....

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

cam timing problems z1000 7 years 7 months ago #312471

  • bountyhunter
  • bountyhunter's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 7238
  • Thank you received: 325
MAFED wrote:

:( Hi all,

As part of the ‘restoration’ of my 1977 Z1000, I have refurbished the cylinder head valves etc. After fitting the cams and timing chain I rotated the crank by hand and guess what the cam timing is out even though I have followed the instructions to the latter; both cam marks line up with the cylinder head and the 28th pin mark lines up correctly, but every time I turn the engine after approx 350 degrees number 1 inlet valve begins to open as number 1 piston is just coming up to TDC!!

The timing may be off, but there is some valve overlap. The manual on mine shows the inlet valve opens 30 degrees before TDC. The exhaust valve closes at 30 degrees after TDC, so there is a 60 degree overlap where they are both slightly open.

Hope that helps.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

1979 KZ-750 Twin
Last Edit: by bountyhunter.

cam timing problems z1000 7 years 7 months ago #312506

  • TerryK
  • TerryK's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 577
  • Thank you received: 2
keith1 wrote:

Patton wrote:

Likely see the style advancer shown below when seeking to align the T mark with the permanent case mark, used to fix the crankshaft at Top Dead Center incident to assuring correct cam timing.

Good Luck! :)

[Click on image to enhance view]



this is all about the cams and the timing marks on the cam sprockets...read the manual and re-read it again...count the 28 4 times using a magic marker with a friend verifying at least twice and then put on top sprocket....DONE....


Right right right! Don't rely on what the cam lobes look like. Go by the marks and the pin.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

1977 KZ1000
GSXR swingarm and rear brake
WM6 rear Akront rim
Wiseco 1075c pistons
34mm Mikuni flat slide carbs
Dyna S ignition
Lockhart oil cooler
Wiseco pipe

Ontario, Canada

cam timing problems z1000 7 years 7 months ago #312507

  • Patton
  • Patton's Avatar
  • Away
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 18266
  • Thank you received: 1229
keith1 wrote:

Patton wrote:

Likely see the style advancer shown below when seeking to align the T mark with the permanent case mark, used to fix the crankshaft at Top Dead Center incident to assuring correct cam timing.

Good Luck! :)

[Click on image to enhance view]



this is all about the cams and the timing marks on the cam sprockets...read the manual and re-read it again...count the 28 4 times using a magic marker with a friend verifying at least twice and then put on top sprocket....DONE....



this is all about the cams and the timing marks on the cam sprockets...read the manual and re-read it again...

Yes, as shown in the manual page posted by OMR regarding cam timing, which pictures the original advancer before it was changed in January 1974.

As provided in the manual, the crankshaft is first rotated to TDC (Top Dead Center) by aligning T mark on the advancer. The advancer's T mark is important when dealing with cam timing. The other marks on the advancer may be ignored incident to cam timing.

The original advancer with 5 degress BTDC (Before Top Dead Center) was modified in Jan 1974 to 20 degrees BTDC.

The 1977 KZ1000 in question has the 20 degree advancer.

The mark circled in green on the point cam rotor was added later to help orient the rotor and avoid reassembling it 180 degrees off.

Good Luck! :)

[Click on image to enhance view]

Attachments:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last Edit: by Patton.

cam timing problems z1000 7 years 7 months ago #312584

  • Patton
  • Patton's Avatar
  • Away
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 18266
  • Thank you received: 1229
Attachments:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

cam timing problems z1000 7 years 7 months ago #312632

  • Old Man Rock
  • Old Man Rock's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 6228
  • Thank you received: 217
"Don't rely on what the cam lobes look like. "...

I'm not so sure this would be a correct statement regardless of what advancer you have installed in your engine...

Even with the later model I have in my engine, the lobe tips will be aimed at each other and should end up at head decking as depicted in the corrected image, right hand side.

I also have performance cams (105 lobe centers) and adjustable sprockets and the cam lobe tips still are at head deck....

Other wise, your valve timing opening & closings would be off...

No matter, seems he as OEM cams and sprockets so outside of which advancer, just follow the manual for TDC (T) and cam sprocket marks to head decking, one pin up and 28 pins over you should be good to go....

OMR

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

1976 KZ900-A4
MTC 1075cc.
Camshafts: Kawi GPZ-1100 .375 lift
Head: P&P via Larry Cavanaugh
ZX636 suspension
Keihin, 29mm CR specials
Kerker 4-1, 1.5" comp baffle.
Dyna-S E.I.
Earls 10 row Oil Cooler
Acewell 2802 Series Speedo/Tach
Innovate LC1 Wideband 02 AFR meter

Phoenix, Az
  • Page:
  • 1
  • 2